Archaeology Warning: They May Have Secretly Found Antarctica 300 Years Before Us! - Graham Hancock

This could be the last time I speak

about myself, my work, because there's a

chance that I might not make it off the

operating table this month. And a

journalist who has very bad blood

towards me has been trying to publish a

story on me for more than 2 years now,

and it will come out in the next month

or two. And I didn't want that to be the

last word on my life.

>> What do you want the last word of your

life to be?

>> I'm here to communicate about the

possibility of a major forgotten episode

in Human Story. I'm talking about a lost

civilization.

>> So, most people think civilization

started 6,000 years ago.

>> Yes.

>> But you believe there's strong evidence

that there could have been a previous

civilization

>> 20,000 years ago. And I'm going to

present the evidence for that here,

Stephen. And it suggests a golden age

where there was no violence, no cruelty,

where great healers and sages were at

work. They're extremely sophisticated.

However, if you follow the myths

further, as I've done, you find

something odd happens. We find that they

stepped away from the original purity

and become a culture that begins to

impose its power on others around the

world. And then sewn into those myths is

scientific information which record a

gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out

the human race.

>> If what you're saying is true, what does

that mean for our lives? I guess also

our future.

>> Well, there's always this feeling in the

myth that we brought this upon

ourselves. And when I look at our

civilization today, I see a civilization

that ticks all the mythological boxes

for the next lost civilization. And that

we are most likely to be the cause of

that cataclysm ourselves. Unless we wake

up.

Graeme Hancock, what will you care about

on your last day?

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>> Bram Hancock, I guess the first question

I wanted to ask you is what is it you've

committed the last more than 30 years of

your life to understanding

>> what it is is a a puzzle.

I'm puzzled by aspects of the human

past. There could be, and I think

there's a lot to suggest there was, a

major forgotten episode in the human

story. That's why I refer to us as a

species with amnesia. When I use that

phrase, I need to give credit to Emanuel

Velikovski who wrote a book called

mankind in Amnesia. I think we are a

species with amnesia. I think we have

forgotten something very important in

our own past. And when I turn to the

experts, I find much of what they say

very interesting and very useful. but

some of what they say extremely

unsatisfactory and and not responding to

the problems that that I have in the

past. And that's led me to to take my

own approach to the past to look at that

and and to offer uh readers because I'm

mainly an author occasionally make TV

shows to offer them an alternative point

of view which is rational and and and

solidly based but which is contrary to

key aspects of the mainstream narrative.

We only have decipherable written

scripts from the last 5 and a half

thousand years maximum. Before that, we

don't have any any writing that we can

at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15,

20,000 years. All you can base it on

from an archaeological point of view is

what they can dig out of the ground. And

I think what they're missing, the

ancients did leave us memories of what

they went through. We have myths and

traditions and scriptures from all

around the world which record a gigantic

cataclysm affecting the human race and

all but wiping out the human race.

Everybody knows the story of the flood

of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is

just an one example of hundreds like

that of stories from around the world.

Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's

story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is

another of those stories that remembers

a global flood that wiped out a former

era of existence, leaving only a few

survivors. And the archaeological

response to them is there was a local

river flood. They exaggerated it. It was

a big deal for them. So they said it

happened to the whole world. And I'm

sick of archaeologists saying that. This

is the memory banks of our species. This

is the record, the only record we have

of a period before 6,000 years ago. And

we shouldn't despise it and scorn it as

primitive superstition. We should say,

what can we find in here that we can

coordinate with scientific facts that

we're aware of? Let's see if there's

something to this rather than just

dismissing it. Many of these myths

contain imagery and a series of numbers.

A very important academic study

published in the 1960s a book called

Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santilana,

professor of the history of science at

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

and Hera Vondes, professor of history of

science. This is not me speaking. This

is major major historians of science in

the 1960s. They found encoded in those

myths numbers and imagery that could

only relate to one thing and that's an

obscure astronomical phenomenon called

the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not

going to go into the technical details,

but to observe it and to record it and

to predict it, to predict its effects in

the future involves very precise

astronomical observations maintained

over a very long period of time,

hundreds and hundreds of years at least.

So here we have myths of a global

cataclysm. There is just so much else.

There are ancient maps that show the

world as it looked during the ice age,

again dismissed as just total

coincidence and not significant by

archaeology. I feel that archaeology has

failed miserably in providing a

nurturing satisfying answer to the

questions we all have.

>> So when you say global cataclysm

>> what does that mean? Means that some

something hit the planet there was we

were wiped out.

>> Yeah. There there there are a number of

options and again I need to stress this

because because there's so much

propaganda in this business I'll be

immediately accused of lunatic fringe.

The solid science that's been done on

this uh is twofold. One aspect of it,

the one that I think I find most

persuasive is called the younger drius

impact hypothesis. And this is a

mainstream hypothesis, but it is

severely criticized within academia. The

hypothesis is that about 20,000 years

ago, a very large comet came in from

deep space and went into orbit around

the sun. This would be a comet of a

diameter of 100 kilometers, maybe 200.

Comes in, gets captured by the sun's

gravity, goes into an orbit. That orbit

crosses the orbit of the Earth. While

you're dealing with one large object,

the chances of getting hit are extremely

low. It would be very bad if you did,

but very low. Trouble is, nobody

disputes this. Once comets are caught by

the gravitational field of a very large

planet or of a sun, they start to break

up into multiple parts. And this is what

happened to the younger dryass comet.

Instead of being a single bullet, it

became a shotgun blast. It became

thousands and thousands of objects of

which we've cataloged quite a lot.

Numbers of them, comet Enki is the best

known bit of that former comet. Many of

the academics who look at this think

that comet Enki which is about six

kilometers in diameter and which does

cross the orbit of the earth they think

that that was the source comet but

whereas the other team are saying no

that's a bit of the source comet there

were many other bits as well and 12,800

years ago 12,860

approximately the earth went into a

storm of these fragments none of them

big enough to compare with the object

that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million

years ago but all over the world. The

earth is turning. This stuff comes in.

They found it in the west coast of North

America. They found it in Belgium. And

they found it as far east as Syria. So,

it's like the earth turns and this stuff

is just coming in. Most of it is blowing

up in the air. It isn't even hitting the

ground. But an air burst from an object

that might be 100 meters in diameter is

equivalent to a very substantial nuclear

blast. So, their argument is the Earth

was hit by a comet storm. And this they

then argue, and I think they're right,

uh, explains what happened then because

12,800 years ago, we were still in the

ice age. Uh, but the earth was coming

out of the ice age. In fact, for about

a,00 maybe 2,000 years before that, the

earth had been getting warmer, getting

quite nice. And you would normally

expect that to continue. But then

suddenly, 12,800

years ago, give or take, 60 years,

there's a huge interruption. There's a

radical change. The earth instead of

warming, it suddenly goes back into a

massive deep freeze. And this is the

time when all the famous big animals of

the ice age, the megapora are wiped out.

The the woolly mammoths, the mastadons,

the giant sloths, these things like 14

ft tall, you know, they're all they're

all wiped out in that window around

about 12,800 years ago. And most

important of all, there's a very

mysterious sea level rise that occurs

then. This you would not expect when the

earth is entering a cold phase. Normally

when earth enters a cold phase, ice

accumulates on the existing ice caps. It

doesn't melt and go into the sea. So the

next thing is how do we explain this

sudden rise in sea levels at the

beginning of younger drives? It

shouldn't have happened. The comet

theory explains it perfectly. the the

the mass, the impact, the heat, the air

bursts, that would have been enough to

send the ice sheets into meltdown and to

cause this pulse of melt water. Then the

freeze sets in, you have about 1,200

years of freezing, desperately cold

conditions. And then again, 11,600 years

ago, womph, it suddenly warms up. I

mean, these are radical climate changes.

They're beyond anything that's happening

now. And uh I I think explanations are

needed for them. And because 12,800

years ago may sound a long time ago, but

it's really yesterday in the human

story. Uh, so something very big

happened to the Earth and happened to

our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it

wasn't a comet, another theory that's

been put forward is a radical change in

solar activity. This might have been

involved with it as well. I don't find

that as persuasive as the younger dus

impact hypothesis. And you know maybe

some other explanation will come up but

what nobody disputes is that the younger

dus was a catastrophe. Uh it was global

uh and and it had huge effects.

>> You um you chose intentionally to come

and have this conversation today.

>> Why today?

>> Well I've been quite unwell really

noticeably unwell since uh January

February uh this year particularly very

very short of breath. It's it's because

the one of the failed valves in my my

heart is um causing blood to regurgitate

inside the heart rather than pumping it

through the body. And that means that

oxygenated blood is not getting to my

lungs. I probably would live another two

or three years without the surgery,

maybe maybe even five, but the quality

of life would be very low. I I can't

even walk up three stairs without being

being exhausted at the moment. So, I've

definitely decided to to have the

surgery. Why am I doing this interview

now rather than postponing it until

after the surgery and I've recovered?

Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely

minuscule chance that I might not make

it off the operating table

>> this month.

>> Yeah, this month. And if that were the

case, uh this would be the last time

I've spoken about myself, my work, my

life, challenges I faced, uh in an open

forum like this. And and and I I I

choose to do that. And I'm going to say

specifically why without giving without

mentioning names. I choose to do that

because a journalist uh who has very bad

blood towards me has been trying to

publish a story on me for more than two

years now. Uh and it will come out in

the next in the next month or two. And I

didn't want that to be the last word of

my life. That's why I'm here. Stephen,

>> what do you want the last word of your

life to be?

I would I would hope that people will

come to understand that I'm not the

person that

a very small minority of archaeologists

have mobilized social media to present

me as. I'm not a grifter. I'm not a

hoaxer. I'm not a con man. I'm deeply

committed to this. I've devoted my life

to it for more than for more than 30

years. I'm passionate about it. It

matters to me. And I think again I'll be

laughed at for saying this, but I feel

called to do this. I feel I

I feel it's my obligation and my

responsibility to do this.

>> How is that disputed? Because I I guess

I need to understand human history to

understand why

>> the the the fundamental belief that you

have that there was a civilization that

we aren't talking about.

>> I'd like to be clear. It's not a belief.

Um this is another is a mistake that my

that my critics of often make. They they

think that I'm dealing with some sort of

belief system or some sort of cult here.

No, I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm

just puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled

by the memories that have been passed

down to us and I'm puzzled that those

memories concur all around the world on

a serious cataclysmic event.

>> What is it that the your people that

aren't puzzled and are certain belief?

>> Yeah. They think that glacial lakes in

North America

gradually grew in size and overspilled

the ice dams that held them in place and

that the water from those lakes, some of

it went into the Atlantic Ocean and cut

the Gulf Stream. I don't dispute that

glacial lakes were involved, but those

lakes were filled up at a massive speed.

Nobody disputes that the Younger Dryus

was a cataclysmic event. It's just the

the degree of the cataclysm that's

disputed and what caused it that's

disputed.

>> But everyone agrees that humans are 300

15,000 years.

>> I mean at present when I started on this

quest back back in the late 80s early

90s it was felt that anatomically modern

human beings had not existed for more

than 50,000 years. Very recent really.

But this turned out to be complete

rubbish because anatomically modern

humans are much older than 50,000 years

ago. We have 196,000y old anatomically

modern human remains from Ethiopia. And

then finally 315,000

years ago a recent find in um Gibir Hood

in Morocco again anatomically modern

humans. So we can say that

if we define ourselves by our anatomy,

uh, brain size,

capacity of the skull, if we define

ourselves in those ways, we've been

around for at least 315,000 years and

probably much longer. That's that's just

an accident of discovery. And that's one

of the things that puzzles me. If we're

anatomically modern, if we've got all

the modern kit, if we've got the same

brains, we've got the same neurology,

everything is there. Why do we wait more

than 300,000 years to establish

something recognizable as a human

civilization? Why do we wait so long? We

got all the kit. There's evidence that

that our ancestors were aware of

agriculture, just chose not to use it

much, much much earlier than that. the

complex of events that leads to a

city-based civilization, which is the

kind of civilization we have now all

over the world that you can only really

trace that back to 6,000 years ago. Yes,

you can say that before 6,000 years ago

there was buildup to what became the

high civilizations.

But my question is why not much earlier?

Why why did we wait until that moment?

And and I don't find a satisfactory

answer to that question, except perhaps

we didn't wait. Perhaps we're missing

part of our story. And when I say a lost

civilization, I do not mean a

civilization like ours. I do not mean an

industrial civilization. I don't mean

they had cell phones or flew to the moon

or any of that I think they

were very different civilization from

ours. But they had conquered a number of

peaks and one of those peaks was

navigation and ocean seafaring. Hence

the survival of maps which show the

world as it looked during the ice age.

And another was astronomy. Uh and

another really important breakthrough

evidenced by by the ancient maps

particularly a category of maps called

the portalanos

um is accurate relative longitudes. This

is the Arantius Phineas map. It shows

Antarctica uh right there. Uh and and um

this is interesting because this map was

drawn in 1531.

Uh the problem is that our civilization

didn't discover Antarctica until 1820.

So its appearance on a map drawn in

1521,

particularly when we know that the map

was based on older source maps. And the

map maker tells us in his own legend

that he has uncovered material

previously hidden in darkness. When we

find that uh we have to begin to wonder

what is what is going on here. Had

somebody found Antarctica long before

long before we did uh and mapped it with

extremely accurate relative longitudes.

And that's important because our

civilization didn't crack the longitude

problem until the mid- 18th century.

What that meant was that if you're on a

vessel sailing west or east, uh you

might be 300 miles closer to a coastline

than you think you are and suddenly

you're on it in the night and you're

dead. Once you've got longitude work

out, you know exactly where you are. We

didn't get that until 1750, 1760

thereabouts with Harrison's chronometer.

So finding good longitudes on very

ancient maps is another puzzle that I

don't think archaeology solved. So, you

think there could have been a

civilization 20,000 years ago which was

before this young dryest moment where um

I mean I've got this photo here which

I'll throw up on the screen.

>> Yeah.

>> I think you say it's evidence that

something took place.

>> It is that's that's the younger dry

boundary. Uh and I'm with Alan West

who's one of the scientists from the

from the comet research group who are

working on the younger dry hypothesis.

And our hands are on that black stripe

running through the middle of the

drawer. And that is soot. That is

evidence of wildfires burning. Uh it's

full of nano diamonds, tiny little

diamonds microscopic size which are a

classic product of comet impacts. Uh

microspherules, some platinum, some

iridium. All signatures of a cometry

impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in

thick. That layer is the younger dus

boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years

ago.

>> So for anyone that can't see, it's just

like a slice of earth. And there's this

black line going through through the

earth. We're in a draw here where a

river has cut a channel and it's exposed

the sides of the channel and on the

sides of the channel we can see this

black stripe running through and that is

precisely the younger driest boundary

>> and the current hypothesis is from a lot

of archaeologists is there wasn't a

human civilization before this point

12,000 years ago but you believe there's

strong evidence that there could have

been.

>> Yes.

>> So civilization then in your definition

of the word how do you define that? a

group of people gathering and working

together.

>> Fundamentally, it involves it involves

the willing organization or the

unwilling organization of labor. If you

look at a site like Gobeci in Turkey, we

have it on our timeline here somewhere.

It's 11,600

years old. Uh this is really an

extraordinary site. It's a it's a very

sophisticated site. It's very large. It

consists of large T-shaped megaliths

that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are

precise astronomical alignments in it.

Uh this was not done by two or three

people working together. This was well

that's the gobeci today covered by a a

modern canopy to keep uh fair enough to

keep the the weather off it because it

was previously deliberately buried by

its builders. Um but of course there's

much more around. Hundreds and hundreds

more pillars are still underground. We

know they're there because of ground

penetrating radar, but they've not been

excavated yet. So, so this was a major

project and interestingly the people who

built Gobeclet at that at the time

Gobeclet began there was no agriculture

happening there. They were all hunter

gatherers.

>> Mhm.

>> Nevertheless, they did something that

archaeologists used to say hunter

gatherers couldn't do. They organized

themselves. They made a huge project.

They implemented it and they delivered

it. And Gobecletep is not alone. It's

one of dozens of sites like that all

over Anatolia in in in Turkey. This was

a highly organized, sophisticated

huntergatherer civilization that was

involved in making this place.

>> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So, if

the ice age ended 11,700 years ago,

>> Yeah.

>> and Gbecki is 11,600 years ago,

>> that means there's a 100redyear gap

between the end of the ice age and

something as sophisticated as Gabbecki.

>> Not exactly. Because because dates in

this frame, they're not spot-on accurate

dates. Some will say the ice age ended

11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700

years ago. But the fact is that in this

window, the world was warming up again.

It was getting better. And that's when

this project was was created. And the

mystery is mystery for for

archaeologists anyway is that it was

hunter gatherers. And archaeologists are

now having to come to terms with that.

You see the idea was you had to have an

agricultural community first in order to

create projects like this because that

allows people to become specialists.

What if you generate a food surplus that

you can rely on then you can take people

with certain skills and say focus on

that become an astronomer become an

architect become an engineer we'll

support you in doing that. That was the

idea and that was why it was felt that

something like Gobeclet couldn't be

built until about 6,000 years ago when

there was widespread agriculture. But

that turned out not to be true. Uh it

was built by hunter gatherers, but

within a thousand years of it being

built, agriculture becomes present in

that whole area.

>> H origins of agriculture are definitely

earlier than we've than we've been

taught.

>> So it's funny because I don't know a lot

about the ice age, but humans survived

the ice age.

>> Oh god, yes, we we we did. It's just

it's just um

where do you want to be during an ice

age? That's the question.

>> What are my options?

If you were a rational being, which most

human beings are, you would immediately

exclude Northern Europe.

>> Absolutely no point in being in that

frozen, miserable wilderness.

>> You'd immediately exclude the northern

part of North America, too. No point in

being there. It's just horrible at that

time. Siberia, pretty rough. No, you'd

look for the tropics. You'd go you'd go

down close to the equator. you'd go to

the places that weren't affected by the

ice age, that were actually the best

real estate on Earth. That's where you'd

go. That's why uh if we are looking for

a missing episode in the human story,

we're wasting our time looking for it in

Northern Europe or North America. Uh we

should be looking for it in Mexico. We

should be looking for it in India. We

should be looking for it in Indonesia.

we should be looking for it uh around

Papu Nu Guinea. All of these areas that

were that were really great places to

live during the ice age. That's that's

the kind of place that the sort of

civilization I'm talking about could

have thrived.

>> What is the difference? You know, cuz on

here it says the earliest known humans

were 300,000 odd years ago.

>> Yeah.

>> What is the difference between these

humans 300,000 years ago and the

civilization you're describing 20,000

years ago that you believe existed?

Apart from what is perhaps wrongly

described as a slight refinement in

human features, natural selection

operating on what humans perceive as

beauty, I don't know. But otherwise, the

same

>> the same

>> the same. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's

not that not disputed. Nobody's saying

that Jebel Hood human beings were

somehow different from us. They're

anatomically modern humans.

>> But how did they live um versus your

definition of ai civilization?

>> They lived a simple hunter gatherer

life.

>> Okay. in small groups.

>> Yeah. But somehow

around 11,600 years ago, people started

accumulating

monuments that can only be made with

large groups and organized organized

labor. You've got to you you have to

have a system. You have to can't build

something like Gobeci without planning

out in advance. You got to draw it out

somehow. There has to be a plan. It's

not something you just wing. Uh so so

there has to there's a missing

background to all of that which bothers

me. And again, so most people think

civilization started what 6,000 years

ago.

>> Yes. That that would be when

civilizations become archaeologically

visible. So you have uh ancient Sumemer,

Mesopotamia,

uh which roughly 3,500 I'm going to use

BC because everybody's familiar with

that. Roughly 3,500 BC, which is 5,500

years ago approximately. We start seeing

cities being built. We start seeing the

beginnings of writing taking place

around about the same time. The same

thing is happening in Egypt. Maybe a

couple of hundred years later, but the

new work that's being done in Egypt is

pushing Egypt much closer to to Sumer

narrowing that that window. Effectively,

you can say that these two civilizations

become archaeologically visible at the

same time. And uh they're not alone

because on the other side of the world

in Peru uh there's a civilization now

recognized called the Karal Supoupe

civilization which built pyramids uh

which also goes back 5,500 years. Uh and

and this is one of the mysteries I'm I'm

looking at now is is why we have these

apparently coincidental emergence of

high civilizations in the same window uh

all around the world. Indis Valley

civilization roughly the same 5,000

years old. Yeah. We're looking at Karal

here I think. Yeah. Yeah. These classic

these the feature is these circular

plazas in front of them and then the

pyramid with a and and uh you know these

were not and not expected in Peru. When

archaeologists think of Peru they tend

to think of Machu Picchu the Inca

civilization. That's what gets all the

coverage.

>> And that's 600 years ago.

>> That's 600 years ago. yesterday. Whereas

these Kal Supoupe pyramids, Karal,

Asparro, Bandura,

Pineo, these ones are much older,

thousands of years older. They're

extremely sophisticated. They built with

an earthquake proof technology. They

instead of using blocks, they put small

stones in in textile bags and those

allow a certain amount of shifting so

the thing doesn't collapse in an

earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old

getting on. So again, not an

agricultural civilization at the at that

time. They're a huntergatherer

civilization. So So archaeologists are

having to confront a reversal of their

model at the moment. And I think there's

room in that reversal of the model for a

forgotten episode in the human story.

>> Tell me about this forgotten episode in

the human story.

>> Yeah, it's uh it's remembered it's

remembered all around the world as a

golden age where there was no violence,

no cruelty. Um where great healers and

sages were at work. where powers that

are scorned in our society today such as

telepathy and telekinesis which are

regarded as completely non-existent by

our scientists uh were regarded as a

matter of fact of life in in in this

ancient world. That's uh a civilization

that emerged out of shamanism uh and

made something good. But then if you

follow the myths further as I've done,

you find something odd happens,

you find that they've stepped away from

the original purity.

That they've become

a culture that begins to impose its

power on others around the world. And

that's always given as the reason for

the cataclysm in the myths that that we

angered the gods. It might have been

with our noise. It might have been with

our irreverence. We angered the gods and

they sent a flood. They weren't happy

with their creation. They wanted to

start again, wipe the slate clean. And

so there's this there's always this

feeling in the myths and it's and I

can't explain it. I don't know what what

it comes from, but it's always there is

that in some way we ourselves

brought this upon ourselves. Is this

those people not understanding the

forces of mother nature and trying to

sort of justify it as

>> or perhaps a deeper understanding of the

forces of mother nature? Maybe

>> perhaps the way that human beings are

operating in the world today

um should be included amongst the forces

of nature. We we are a geological force.

Uh and worse than that, we're a psychic

force which is full of anger and hatred

and suspicion and and and mutual

destruction. That's not going to be good

for nature. That that's that's going to

be disturbing. We're an integrated

system in my view. We we're not

separate. Human beings are part of all

of this and what we do affects all of

that. And that's what the ancient myths

seem to testify to.

So, if I may finish on that,

>> when I look at our civilization today, I

I don't want to go off on a rant, but

when I look at our civilization today, I

see a civilization that ticks all the

mythological boxes. every single one for

the next lost civilization. And I

envision a situation

10 or 15,000 years from now when we will

be a myth,

a fantasy that our our ancestors

actually could speak to one another on

opposite sides of the planet, that our

ancestors they could fly to the moon, uh

you know, they could go to the depths of

the ocean. The archaeologists of that

time will say complete fantasy, just

made up, never happened, but it did.

We're that lost civilization

and we don't need a comet and we don't

need solar activity because if we're so

psychically messed up as a species,

we'll probably end up doing it to

ourselves.

That's what nuclear weapons are about.

mass species suicide

and the mental processes that drive that

very dangerous very effective of the

world we live in.

Hatred is a psychic force and uh the way

it's being generated around the world at

the moment and mobilized and focused is

um it's got to be bad for all of us

>> especially when we have such powers to

self-destruct. It's terrible. This This

is what drives me nuts is is looking at

the low consciousness level of the

so-called leaders on this planet. When I

look around the whole bunch of them,

I just see very low consciousness

individuals who define everything in

material terms. uh who who are who are

who are focused on

this also gets me into trouble but I

I think nationalism is something that

humanity needs to grow out of we need to

grow out of nationalism it's just an

extension of tribalism we need to grow

out of it soon and let me be clear I am

not talking about world government I

don't want anything like I don't want

any government I'm an anarchist

basically and that's what anarchy means

it means without government I don't not

any government at all. But we have to

get past this notion that by accident I

was born with this particular skin. You

know, the notion is that this these

accidents of birth define us. That we

must somehow massively respect and love

people who look like us and and and kind

of hate and fear people who don't look

like us. We have to get past that. We

have to get past that as a species. It's

really important. All human beings

everywhere all the same fundamentally.

Of course, we're vastly diverse. We have

we have incredible different gifts. I

value and appreciate the differences in

different cultures all around the world.

This is wonderful. But it doesn't have

to come with and we are better than you.

Uh and we're going to kill you because

you don't share our ideas. This is

insane. It's crazy. We're not a mature

species. We're we're a childish species.

And leading our species are leaders who

have the mentality of um deranged

teenagers.

>> We elected them.

>> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which

shows how easy it is to manipulate

uh the narrative in the world today.

Today, who wins in elections isn't the

best person, isn't the good person,

isn't the person who's going to do good,

it's the best communicator who wins. So

this um ancient civilization that we

could have theoretically forgotten, you

were somewhat implying that maybe they

were right that their own actions

>> caused the

great flood as they say they they talk

about in mythology.

>> I floated that notion. Yeah. Yeah. They

might they might have been, but it's

enough to say that that's what they

believed because that's what all the

myths say. The Noah story is prefigured

in ancient Sumer um with um an almost

identical flood myth. The gods are

angry. A great flood is going to be

sent. The intention is to wipe out

humanity.

But this this god who's called Enki

says to Atraasis, "I'm going to save

you. Build a boat. Build it now. A big

one. Put into it the seeds of all things

that you will need. Bring each animal of

every kind into your boat." This is this

is a kind of survival arc which is

exactly the same as Noah. Noah's arc is

just copied on that. It's just borrowed

from that. And to people that say,

"Well, these are just stories. These are

fictions that someone wrote and then

they pass them down and there's no truth

in these things at all."

>> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I

just happen to think they're not. And

and my job has been to make that case. I

do not claim that I have proved there

was a lost civilization. Any

archaeologist who says Hanok claims he's

proved that is lying. I don't claim

that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified.

And I'm going to I'm going to complete

that journey as long as I can. I'm going

to carry on investigating and looking

into all aspects of this because that's

what I'm here to do.

>> And that lost civilization, you said

they were seabbearing potentially.

>> Seafaring. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Which means they had boats.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So we know, for example,

that anatomically modern uh human beings

reached Australia 60,000 years ago. That

those involve significant sea journeys.

They reached Cyprus in the Mediterranean

14,000 years ago. Again, they involve

sea journeys, not engine boats, not

metal boats. You can do it on quite

simple craft. Look at look at the

Polynesians. Look at the vast distances

that they explored on outrigger canoes.

Uh so yeah, boats, but not our kind of

boats.

>> H I just don't understand how if they're

traveling the seas and boats, how

they're they aren't classified as a

civilization. Well, because according to

the mainstream model which I am trying

to provide an alternative to, they never

existed. There was no such people. They

never did these things. The maps are

just coincidences, irrelevance, just

odd. They put Antarctica, they put a a

land mass in Antarctica because they

felt it would balance the world. That's

the theory that's given. And it's just

to me it's not it's not satisfactory.

Doesn't it just doesn't add up. These

things need to be explained. And it's

why it's why in every society which

wishes to make progress, uh, mavericks,

people who go against the grain, no

matter

how much they have to take, are

needed. They're needed in our society to

provide a balance to this overwhelming

mass that science now occupies. Science

has now come to occupy the space that

religion occupied in many people's

minds. And again, I need to emphasize

I'm not against science. Science.

Science is about to save my life. I have

major heart surgery coming up in two

weeks time. I'm not against it at all,

but I think it should be one weapon in

our armory, not the only weapon.

>> There should be a button just down below

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And if you're not subscribed, please

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Thank you so much.

>> One of the um things I was super curious

about, cuz I was actually there last

last week, is this place,

>> Giza.

>> Pyramids of Giza.

>> The great pyramid of Giza.

Here we look at it. Attributed to the

pharaoh Kufu,

who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty.

>> What is the mystery here? So again,

pyramids are this big stack of like

concrete blocks in Egypt.

>> What is the Why is it so mysterious?

>> Well, first of all, they're not

concrete. They're they're human

limestone um and granite. Uh first of

all, it's mysterious for the sheer size

of it. Look.

So you got roughly 750 ft along each

side. Okay? And they vary in length by

only fractions of an inch. they've got

it just about spot-on exact on the side

length. And you want that in a pyramid

because if you get it wrong, you're

going to end up with a corkcrew rather

than a pyramid. If you get it wrong at

the bottom, those errors are going to

magnify and they're going to get worse

and worse and it's not going to be a

pyramid at the end of the day. Secondly,

weight calculated at about 6 million

tons,

more than 2 million individual blocks of

stone. I've climbed the pyramid five

times. Once I climbed it, when there was

an event taking place on the Giza

Plateau, picnics basically, and and a

lot of Kyne just decided to climb the

pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four

other times without other people there,

but this time there were hundreds of

people on the pyramid. That's when I

realized how difficult this thing is to

make because the biggest danger was the

other people. Once you're up two or

three courses, you fall, you're dead.

It's uh it's a 52° slope. there's no way

you're going to stop. You're going to

come down and still every year people

die on the Great Pyramid. That's why

they've made it illegal to climb it now.

So, there's that. Then there's the

almost perfect alignment of the Great

Pyramid to true north. Not to compass

North, which is about 10 or 11 degrees

off true north, but to astronomical

north, real north. The Great Pyramid is

aligned within 3 60ths of a single

degree. I put it that way because

degrees are divided into 60 minutes. So,

3 minutes of arc. The Great Pyramid is

aligned to that level of precision,

360ths of a single degree to true north.

And they've done that on a 6 million ton

monument which is 481 ft high if you

take account of its original height

which has a 52° slope which is filled

with internal corridors and spaces,

Grand Gallery, the ascending, the

descending corridors. All of this is

extremely difficult to do. It is it's

not impossible to do because we see it

there. Uh, could our civilization do it?

Yeah, I think we could. Uh, but would we

do it? No, I don't think we would. Uh,

the motive wouldn't be there. People

say, "What the why? I mean, why do you

want to align it perfectly to true

north? It's enough to ask me to build a

6 million ton monument, but you want it

aligned to true north as well. Come on.

I mean, that's a really difficult

specification. We'd find that hard." um

a kind of artistry

was put to work on the Great Pyramid as

well as skill. Let's get rid of any

notion that slaves were involved. They

were not there. There wasn't slavery in

the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a

work of love from the first to the last

stone. It's a work done with great skill

and care. It's a beautiful and

extraordinary thing both inside and out.

It sits almost exactly on latitude 30

which is 1/ird of the way between the

north pole and the equator. And uh it

incorporates the dimensions of the earth

on a scale of 1 to 43,200

in its own dimensions. So if you take

the height of the great pyramid and

multiply it by 43,200.

I'll explain why that number matters.

Multiply it by that number, you get the

polar radius of the earth. Measure the

base perimeter of the Great Pyramid.

multiply it by the same factor, 43,200,

and you get the equatorial circumference

of the Earth.

Archaeologists know this. They say it's

a coincidence, total coincidence, just

by chance. However, I I could agree with

them actually if the scale was not 1 to

43,200.

But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200

changes everything because that belongs

to a sequence of numbers that is found

in ancient mythology all around the

world. And those numbers are all

multiples of the number 72. And I

mentioned at the beginning of our

discussion the book by the great

historian of science Giorgio de

Santiliano professor of the history of

science at MIT. He was the first to

identify that these numbers and the

imagery that go with them derive from a

phenomenon called the precession of the

equinoxes. I better explain that a

little bit. The procession of the

equinoxes.

Everybody's heard the song We live in

the dawning of the age of Aquarius. I'm

sure you've heard that.

>> Uh no comment.

>> We live in the dawning of the age of

Aquarius.

That's astrology at the moment. And for

the last 2,000 years on the spring

equinox, the sun has risen against the

background of the constellation of

Pisces.

That's the age of Pisces. We live in the

age of Pisces. It's not an accident that

the early Christians used the fish as

their symbol.

>> The next constellation on the zodiac

when you go backwards around it is

Aquarius.

And the procession is actually caused by

a wobble on the axis of the Earth. I'm

going to pretend that this is the Earth.

>> Okay.

>> And instead of just doing this, while

it's doing that, it's also doing that.

It's wobbling.

>> And that affects the rising time and

season at which particular stars rise.

It affects two things noticeably. One

thing it affects is the pole star. At

the moment, the pole star is Polaris.

The pole star, this is astron

astronomical north. It's the star

towards which the extended north pole

pole of the earth points most directly.

>> Okay. At present, it's Polaris. It

hasn't always been Polaris. 4,000 years

ago, it was Thuban in the constellation

of Draco. That's because the Earth's

axis is doing this. At the horizon, it

does the same thing with the zodiacal

constellations. We shift gradually

through each constellation lasts about

2,000 years in each constellation. The

great year where we come back to square

one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920

years is the convention that's applied

in ancient mythology. So, the fact that

one of those numbers is the scale used

to encode the dimensions of the earth in

the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental

in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If

it was 1 to 57,000,

I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it

was 1 to 21,000,

I wouldn't pay attention to it. But 1 to

43,200,

that's the number of syllables in the

Rigveda, for example. You find this all

over the world, everywhere.

>> So, what does that imply or suggest? Uh

what it suggests is that incorporated

into the building of the great pyramid

was knowledge that was not supposed to

have existed 4 and a half thousand years

ago. In fact, knowledge that was not

supposed to have existed until 2,000

years ago. Hypocus of Alexandria is the

Greek who was supposed to have

discovered procession. Uh but the

incorporation of procession in the

structure of the Great Pyramid says to

me that that knowledge is much older. It

was already old then. I really want to

make sure I'm clear on this procession

thing because I'm not not super clear.

Yeah. Um, what does it what does it mean

procession? It means that there's a

certain star pattern that we see once

every 20,000 years.

>> It it it it precesses. It goes

backwards. The direction through the

through the zodiac is is forwards in the

normal year, but in the long term year

because of the wobble, the sun rise

against the background of the spring

equinox. The sun rises perfectly due

east. It always does. It also rises

perfectly due east on the autumn

equinox. On the summer solstice, the sun

rises in the northern hemisphere north

of east and south of east on the on the

winter solstice. The key moment for the

ancients was the equinox. It was

considered to define the character of

the year. And what defined it was the

constellation that housed the sun that

was the house of the sun.

>> Okay. So the star pattern.

>> Yeah. The a zodiacal constellation.

These the constellations of the zodiac

lie along what is called the ecliptic,

the path of the sun.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. The earth, the moon, we're all on

the ecliptic within a few degrees above

or below it. And and therefore, these

are constellations that we can see the

sun against the background of.

>> Constellation like Orion, you'll never

see the sun against the background of

it. You're only going to see it against

the background of the zodiacal

constellations that lie on the so-called

path of the sun. And those are the 12

familiar constellations of the zodiac.

And as I say, we're living in the age of

Pisces right now. And uh according to

ancient astrology, we're going to be

making the transition into Aquarius

within about the next 150 years. The sun

will have left Pisces and will be rising

in Aquarius. So actually, the song is

true. We do live in the dawning of the

age of Aquarius. The only question is

whether that means anything or not. The

ancients thought it did. Uh we think it

doesn't. Uh, I'm not sure who's right.

>> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you

to check if I'm I've got it correctly,

but I suspect I might not have. Within

the design of the pyramids, there was a

number which you said was 43,000.

>> It's a scale.

>> It's a scale.

>> It's a scale that's used for the height

and the base perimeter of the Great

Pyramid. Base perimeter, measure, four

sides, add it together. Height, the

actual height of the Great Pyramid. It's

true original height. It lost about 30

feet in an earthquake in 131. But you

can calculate the true original height

from the angle of the of the sides.

>> Ah yeah right.

>> Um and when you take that height

>> and multiply it by 43,200

you get the polar radius of the earth.

>> You get the radius of the earth.

>> That's from the center of the earth to

the edge of the earth. It's not the

diameter of the earth. The diameter is

twice the radius.

>> It's the it's the polar radius. Okay.

>> A key dimension of the earth. measure

the sides and you get on the same scale

1 to 43,200, you get the equatorial

circumference of the Earth, what the

Earth measures at its equator, its

largest its largest measure. Um, and and

that uh is either a coincidence or it's

deliberate. And because of the number

chosen and because that number is all

over ancient mythology, I think it's

deliberate.

>> That means that they must have known the

circumference of the Earth.

>> Yeah. It means they they knew the

circumference of the earth and it means

they chose a place to put the great

pyramid which also was relevant. Uh this

isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37. This

is just a fraction off latitude 30°

north. So therefore 1/3 of the way

between the equator and the north pole.

It's a it's a re it's a significant

relevant. What it's telling us is this

monument speaks to the earth. This

monument is locked into the true north

of this planet. This monument gives you

the dimensions of this planet. This

monument is speaking to this planet.

>> How could they possibly know the

circumference of the Earth 4,500 years

ago?

>> Because they're a lost civilization

because the the knowledge comes down

from a former time. I don't think the

Egyptians knew it. I think it came down

I think it was inherited knowledge from

what I'm here to advocate for and to

speak for the possibility of a major

forgotten episode in the human story

>> which could be 20,000 years ago and

they've passed it down in in myths and

stories.

>> Yes, passed it down but not only in

myths and stories. Um, this is something

else that I will I'll just hint at here

that I intend to get into in the new

book is that there appear to have been

organizations

in each of these civilizations. In

Egypt, they were called the followers of

Horus.

In Sumer, they were called the Akcaloo.

They served as advisers to kings. They

were called sages. There's a reference

to them. Many cultures refer to them as

the seven sages. They provided advice to

kings in the historical period. And I'm

wondering whether we're looking at some

kind of longived organization here which

is carrying down information looking for

the right time to switch the engine of

civilization back on again. I know it's

sounds extreme but uh that's what I do.

I explore I explore extreme ideas and

see whether and see whether they fit or

not. And I'm beginning to find this idea

does fit it. It fit it fits with a whole

range of information which will be in

the next book.

>> A sage that reports to the king. And

>> it not only reports to the king but

advises the king

>> on what?

>> On everything on what to do. Oh okay.

>> Yeah.

>> The abcalu in the ancient traditions of

Sumer they existed in the pre-deluvian

world. They were there in the world

before the flood. Then there and and

they taught mankind knowledge then. But

the flood came, the cataclysm came, they

were wiped out. But some of the abcalu

survived and they appear after the flood

as advisers to the earliest historical

kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering

whether you know there are there are

religions in the world which have

maintained traditions and maintained

offices, priesthoods for example for

thousands of years. I don't see why the

same shouldn't be true here. Why there

shouldn't have been some driving motive

at the end of the ice age to preserve in

a way what they knew and to find

mechanisms to pass it down. One

mechanism is to embed it in wonderful

stories that will go on being told. And

another mechanism is to set up some kind

of secret society which is operating

behind the scenes to guide and steer

society. I'm not going to present the

evidence for that here, but it's an

avenue I'm pursuing. If I if I don't

find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll

abandon it. But at the moment, it's

looking very interesting.

>> Then where did all this information

go? You know, because if the people who

built the pyramids of Giza had this

information, where did the sages go and

with their information?

>> Yeah, it's very it's very odd actually

what what happens after Giza is

fascinating. Um because once you once

you leave the fourth dynasty period, get

into the fifth and sixth dynasties,

pyramid building collapses. The stuff

they're making in the fifth dynasty,

like the pyramid of Unas, fifth dynasty

pyramid in Sakara.

Inside it's stunningly beautiful.

Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the

ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the

side. It's magical. But outside it's

just a pile of dust. It's a mess. It

doesn't even you could hardly recognize

it as a pyramid. And it's true of all

those. So this is odd in itself.

Normally when human cultures create

something they continue to work on it

and it tends to get better and better

not worse and worse. So it's odd what

happens to the pyramids that they get

worse and worse in Egypt. It's like job

done that move on and that's there and

that's going to speak to human beings

not just for a generation, not just for

a hundred years. It's going to be there

speaking to us for thousands of years.

It's going to be sitting there on the

Giza plateau like an enormous question

mark calling towards it those who don't

see it just as a heap of stones but

actually see it as something wonderful

and magnificent and mysterious calling

them to and saying learn about me figure

me out and in the process of learning

about me you're going to learn so much

else well in learning about the great

pyramid I find that it is encoded with

astronomical information that should not

be there if the current model of the

history of science is correct. I think

the current model of the history of

science is wrong. I think this

information was known much earlier and

it's encoded in the great pyramid. Once

I know that, then I have to start

thinking what else does that mean? And

what else it means to me is a big

forgotten episode in our story

>> again. Why? Because they had

intelligence that they're not credited

with having at that time.

>> Yes. Because it's there. Because there

should not be a monument of this scale

which incorporates into it information

that was not supposed to be available to

human beings for another 2 and a half

thousand years.

>> So they must have got it from somewhere.

>> Yes, they must have got it from

somewhere. And and uh the fact that it's

there is is just a fact. All that's left

for us to say is either it's a

coincidence, complete coincidence, or

it's the result of a deliberate

decision. And if it's the result of a

deliberate decision, that weighs much

more towards a deliberate decision

because of the scale chosen because the

scale is part of a system that is found

all over the ancient world. It's not a

random number. It's a very specific

number. uh and it's a number that is

derived from a motion of the earth

itself from the precession of the

earth's axis. It is derived from that.

So I'm situated at a significant

latitude. I'm oriented to true north and

I incorporate the measurements of your

planet on a scale derived from your

planet itself. That's what the Great

Pyramid is saying to us. And it's saying

figure that out.

>> Do you think there's something

underneath it?

>> Oh, there's definitely something

underneath it. Because we think of it as

a sort of like building with the with

tunnels inside it. But

>> yeah, when you go into the great pyramid

now, you go in through what is what is

called the robber's tunnel or Mammoon's

hole. The Khalifa Mammoon had a notion

that there would be a entrance to the

Great Pyramid in its northern face.

Other pyramids had been found with

entrances in their northern face, but at

that time the Great Pyramid was

completely covered with perfectly smooth

limestone facing stones and nobody could

see the entrance. They came off later in

that earthquake in 13001, but when he

broke in in the 9th century, they didn't

know where the door was. Apparently,

there was a place you could almost

literally press a switch and open that

door, but they couldn't find it. So,

they broke in with sledgehammers and

chisels and they smashed their way into

the Great Pyramid. And then at a certain

moment when they're about 60 or 70 ft

into the Great Pyramid, they hear

something dropping in a hollow space. a

big something has fallen in a hollow

space. They head towards that sound and

then they enter the original corridor

system of the Great Pyramid. And that's

the way we all go in now. We go in

through that robber's tunnel and then we

go up the Grand Gallery, but we can also

go down. We can go down to the

subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft

vertically beneath the base of the Great

Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually

think that was the original sacred site

on that monument is that subterranean

chamber. I don't advise anybody with

claustrophobia to go down there. You're

very conscious that you got a 6 million

ton monument sitting right above you and

it place that has earthquakes. Um it can

be quite oppressive, but that's just a

hint of what's under the Giza plateau.

That's just that's an accessible bit. Uh

but it's it's it's already obvious that

there that there is so much more. Some

of it's being picked up with ground

penetrating radar. And I'll take this

opportunity to say that the hysterical

reaction of mainstream scientists to the

announcement by Filippo Beyond uh

>> what is he saying?

>> He's saying that there are enormous

structures under the second pyramid that

not the great pyramid under the pyramid

attributed to Kafrey Kufu's successor.

the the structures that go hundreds of

feet deep under there, structures that

involve spiral

kind of stairways. The reaction has been

overwhelmingly dismissing this.

Archaeologists have not they won't look

further. They say it's impossible and

they won't look at it. And I think

that's shameful for people who imagine

they're scientists. They should be

looking further. I'd like to see the

technology trial in Turkey. There are

underground cities in Turkey, Kaimaki,

for example. we know every room in those

underground cities. Run this technology

on them. If they accurately reproduce

what we already know is there, then we

can be pretty sure they're accurately

reproducing what's under the Giza

pyramids. We need to do a lot more work

before dismissing this. So, I'm I remain

open to the notion that a huge

underworld awaits discovery under Giza.

And the ancient Egyptians themselves

felt that way. They felt that Giza, the

ancient name for it was Rosttow. It was

an entrance to the underworld. They saw

it as an entrance to the afterlife

realm. It makes sense that there would

be much much underground structures

there.

>> And you've been alone in the pyramids.

>> Being with large groups in the pyramid

is difficult in the sense that the

pyramid to me feels like a personality.

When I'm in there with a large group, I

I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It it

it's like it doesn't want to speak to

you anymore. It's the place becomes a

dead space. But but if you can be in

there with a very small group or be

there alone

and just be still,

let the silence descend. Sit in that

silence in the very low lighting that's

in there.

Just pause and

remind yourself that you're in the last

surviving wonder of the ancient world

and it's an incredible privilege to be

there.

And just let it speak to you. And it

does. This is of course my critics will

say another proof that Hanok's a

lunatic. Uh but uh I'm just telling you

what what what what happens to me. It's

a I I think it's a monument that

communicates.

>> What did it say to you?

>> It said to me go further

very much so. I I I I feel

in a weird way validated by the Great

Pyramid. I think it's um not only me,

others as well who've devoted big chunks

of their lives to the great pyramid like

Robert Baval who is a great man by the

way. The Orion correlation, the

recognition that the three pyramids on

the ground are laid out in the pattern

of the belt stars of the constellation

of Orion makes radical and important

changes to our understanding of ancient

Egypt. Again, that's another thing

that's been leapt upon by the

archaeological mafia, uh, because they

want to destroy every new idea, uh,

rather than spend a bit of time thinking

about it.

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If what you're saying is true around

the, you know, the first civilizations

being 20 plus thousand years ago, what

does that mean for us, for our lives?

>> Oh, it's really important meaning for us

because because it will finally remind

us and tell us once and for all that

we're not what it's all about.

>> It's not all about us. The whole human

story is not about us. It's not

inevitable that it comes to this and

that we are temporary like every other

civilization. We're so filled with

arrogance and pride right now in our

technological achievements, our great

abilities, our great powers

and uh the arrogance that comes with

that. The Greeks used to call that

hubris. It's ultimately ends in nemesis.

Ultimately brings you down. Arrogance

arrogance is not a good thing. It's not

a good thing in an individual and it's a

terrible thing in a civilization.

>> It also means that a lot of the things

that we've dismissed as you know

conspiracy or you know hocus pocus

whatever might not be. I mean you talk a

lot about like astrology and stuff like

that and

>> yeah I think we should keep open to to

systems that the ancients used which

we've dismissed like

>> which might be very astrology is one of

them. What does astrology ultimately

say? It it ultimately says that

we these beings these humans aren't

isolated but are connected to the

universe and are affected by everything

that happens in the universe and it's

and it's recognizing that there may be

patterns in that and instead of instead

of just rubbishing that or doing a few

investigations I think it may be worth

looking further into that worth looking

further into telepathy too my friend

Rbert Sheldrich a serious scientist one

of the very few who's doing serious

scientist ific work on

issues like telepathy and like

telekinesis, being able to move things

with your mind. Mainstream scientists,

most of them will just laugh at that.

Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away. You're

a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to

look into those things? It's really

interesting and it's really worth

investigating. We re should realize that

we have a heritage of hundreds of

thousands of years and I believe it's

even older than 315,000 years. We do not

have a heritage of a hundred years,

which is the heritage of modern science.

Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put

modern science even back to the Greeks

in a way. But it doesn't become what we

would recognize as science until the

19th century really. So, it's a very

young thing on if you take the human

being as the as the heart of this and

and and you were to find a little pimple

on the nose of that human being, that

would be science. It's a pimple on the

nose of hundreds of thousands of years

of human experience. Why should we be so

arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of

thousands of years of human experience

in the favor of 150 years maximum of

so-called science?

>> I mean, one of the interesting things is

I actually did go to the Amazon

rainforest in Peru. Um,

>> and they've discovered these like big

square things underground.

>> I've been involved in that.

>> What is What is that? Well, the the name

that's being given to them is uh is

geoglyphs.

>> Geoglyphs.

>> I think I know this one. Nobody knew

they existed at all until about 40 years

ago

>> really.

>> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is

a rainforest and and densely covered

with uh canopy. However, it's constantly

being settled. This is a problem in

itself. It's constantly being settled.

The Amazon is being cleared and it's

being turned into farms. It's the

clearance of bits of the Amazon

initially that exposed these huge

geometric structures.

>> Mhm.

>> Under the rainforest, no longer under

because they cleared the rainforest. Now

with LiDAR, I've been involved with

Marty Parsonan. In fact, he was on my

Netflix show. He's a archaeologist from

Finland and and with Alteo Ramanzi, a

Brazilian geographer. Um what they're

doing is a dense lidar survey of the

whole of Ara province in Brazil. This is

in our Cray province as well. The areas

that are still under canopy rainforest

and lidar can see through the canopy and

it can see raised objects underneath and

it can actually give you the shape of

that object. Then they can go in low u

you know low impact just a few of them

go in check it out see what's there and

then begin the archaeology on the site.

>> I mean this is a prime example. I've got

um I've got a list here of things that

we used to believe and things that how

those beliefs have changed. And one of

them was that we used to believe that

the Amazon was an untouched wilderness.

>> That's right.

>> But in the 1970s, we discovered what, a

thousand of these structures

>> at least. Uh they're confident now from

the LAR work that they're you're talking

of thousands,

3, five, 6 thousand. There are also

roadways that run for 100 km plus. Uh

there's absolutely no doubt that the

Amazon once supported a population of

millions with um extraordinary clever

management of rainforest. soils by

creating a man-made soil that they call

terrapa. It's still used in Brazil

today. We are having to

completely reconceive the Amazon.

It was thought of as a pristine

rainforest which a few human beings

wandered around aimlessly in hunting

whatever. Now we know that it was the

homeland

of a very large population who lived in

city-sized communities.

um who joined those communities with

long straight roadways.

It's it's as though the veil is being

pulled back and we're beginning to see a

completely untold story in the Amazon.

And these geoglyphs,

very precise rectangles, triangles,

circles, squares, all of these it's

geometry. It's geometry. What what's it

what's it doing there in the Amazon? And

and when I when I talked to a local

shaman about this, and I did on on

camera in the in the in the Netflix

show, um he talked to me about how

important these places still are to him,

that these places were made by their

ancestors, that they're places for

shamanic gatherings,

places for shamans to use specifically

to contact the world beyond. Let's be

clear about this. All civilizations,

including ours, although we may deny it,

all of them emerged from shamanism.

Shamanism is the essence uh of the human

adventure uh and and all civilizations

emerge from shamanism. And this one was

shamanism. Yes. Shamanism being the

system of using altered states of

consciousness to gain direct access to

other levels of reality

>> like psychedelics.

>> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a

month. Uh that will give you some

visions too. Uh there there are there

are other ways but but psychedelics are

the most efficient way to enter the

altered state of consciousness and

shamans are masters of the use of plant

medicines everywhere in the world but

particularly in the Amazon rainforest.

This is this is where you you see it

most strongly and DMT the active

ingredient of awaska is very fast acting

in the way that it's normally consumed.

Okay. It's normally vaped or smoked. Uh

it produces a 10-minute journey

literally to the other side of reality.

Uh and there's not much you can do about

it once you're in there. But then you're

out again.

Iaska

is a very clever technology. The Iaska

brew contains DMT.

DMT is not orally active. So you can

drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in

it and it's not going to do anything to

you because there's an enzyme in the gut

that destroys it.

>> The iawaska vine contains a chemical

that shuts that enzyme down and allows

the DMT to be absorbed orally producing

an experience that can last for hours

that can be physically very

uncomfortable. Um what they're doing at

Imperial College is they're giving them

DMT by intravenous infusion

>> using basically anesthesia technology to

constantly top up the dose to keep the

individual in the peak state and unlike

other psychedelics there's no tolerance

with DMT so you can keep on dosing

people

>> when you you've taken OAS 80 times

>> something like that something like that

um it's not just it's important to be

clear about a number of things.

First of all, all psychedelics are

extremely serious matters. They are not

to be taken trivially. They are

extremely serious. With uh

experienced use of Iawaska, one of the

very common reports is this moral

dimension that you are presented with

your own life, with what you've done

with your own life, with the pain that

you may have caused to others. And

suddenly that pain that you caused to

another person which you dismissed as

they just deserved that they just

deserve those words. You suddenly get it

from their point of view. You feel the

agony that your words caused that person

and you and you find yourself did I do

that? Did I say that? You suddenly see

what you are.

You can't go back into your own past and

change negative and useless and

pointless things that you did. You can't

do that. but you can avoid repeating

them in the future. And it's that

teaching of a moral lesson uh that I

find most valuable in Iawaska. It's

helped me to come to terms with my

tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very

aware that that's a problem I have and

it's something I need to do something

about. And I I helped me with that. I'

I've become gentler and and softer. Not

gentle enough, maybe. It's a journey.

It's not a it's not an overnight

transformation. Not a magic pill. Uh the

main work with Iawaska comes after the

medicine. The main work comes with what

you do with the experience, how you

integrate it into your life. That's

where the work begins. People say, "Oh,

it's so easy to take a a brew." Well,

it's not actually not that easy because

you're going to vomit and have diarrhea,

but but easy. Um but that's where the

work begins, not where it ends.

>> And that emotion is that does that stem

back to your relationship with your

parents? Because I was reading about

your early your early years.

Look, we're all frail human beings.

We're all messed about in lots of ways.

We all have we all have issues in our

lives. Um,

>> you said regret.

>> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying

hurtful and unkind things to a number of

people uh over the years. I do I do

regret that very much. I do regret very

much that I wasn't

I wasn't mature enough to realize why my

parents were so difficult. Uh that I

never really forgave them for that. I

never really forgave them for the

stranges of my childhood and and uh the

various things that that that that

happened. I never really saw it from

their point of view. My mother lost

three children aside from me. I'm an

only child, but her first child was

carried to term before me and born dead.

Then I was born. I lived and then the

next two both died at the age of a year.

Well, I know now as a father, I know I

know what what quite a catastrophe that

is for a person for a for a mother to to

lose three children like that.

>> You said weird childhood.

>> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little

Graeme here with my mother and my

father. I was It was 1954

that we landed in India. My father was a

s consultant surgeon and so he went as a

missionary surgeon to India to a place

called the Christian medical college in

velour in south India. Um and we lived

in a tin hut but he was following his

faith. He was doing what was what was

right for him. He was giving his skills

to help to help people. I I I realize

that now and a lot of resentment I have

towards him I probably you know

shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He

was very eccentric. He used to take me

in to watch dissections. Um the there

were still hangings in India at that

time and he would dissect the prisoners

after the hangings. He had me in there

watching it. Um he took me later on.

>> What age?

>> Uh uh five.

>> You were watching bodies being cut up at

five.

>> I was. Yeah. Absolutely very strange.

See it was presented to me as completely

normal. Um but but it was it it was

strange. Fundamentally he was a good man

I believe.

But I think allowing a 4 to 5year-old

child be to see those things is deeply

traumatic in a way that you probably

don't recognize until later.

>> I I agree. It's it's come home to me

more and more as the years have gone by

that what happened to me in those years

in India

scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the

operating theaters and the dissections,

the dissections. It was the gloom and

the misery and the despair that settled

over my family at that time and I don't

think I ever really recovered from that.

>> Did you have nightmares?

>> Yeah.

>> And what what were those nightmares?

>> Um, usually nightmares of loss. Usually

nightmares of

suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a

I'm completely isolated, lost, alone.

The reason I ask these questions is

there's only ever been one other guest

who I sat here with a couple of years

ago

>> who I believe's dad was a surgeon.

>> Mhm.

>> And his dad brought him in to watch

operations and dissections when he was

young.

>> Yeah.

>> And it scarred him in a way that he

didn't realize until later. Yeah.

>> And he told me about the nightmares of

waking up in the night and seeing those

bodies of those people around his bed on

a predictable basis and told me he

actually um coached Michael Jordan

>> and then um Kobe before Kobe Bryant um

passed away and he told me still as an

adult those bodies join him at night

time. So he'll wake up at nighttime and

he'll see them around

>> around his bed. So

>> well thank you universe. That didn't

happen to me. I I I do not have I don't

remember having gruesome nightmares. I

remember a feeling of loneliness and

abandonment. That's what I remember.

>> Loneliness and abandonment.

>> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was

always an outsider at school. Uh

everywhere I've been all my life. That's

what I'm for. I'm here to be an

outsider. I've come to that conclusion.

And and uh I need to do that. Well, I

need to provide an alternative point of

view on the past.

>> There's a real cost to being an

outsider.

>> Oh, yeah. But there are also some

benefits. You know, we are what we are.

And and for me, I was always strange. I

had this childhood in in in India. I

didn't fit into the British school

system. I was a total failure at school.

I could not connect. I could not connect

with any of it. It seemed I just didn't

get it. What was this about? And and and

the cruelty, the viciousness. My dad

went to a boarding school and had a good

experience. So he sent me to a boarding

school in Durham in the north of

England. It was the crulest place,

beatings going on. I I was repeatedly

beaten about the bare buttocks by a

sadistic headmaster with a cane. I

couldn't fit in with the other kids at

school. And uh I don't feel victimized

for being an outsider. I feel I feel

it's a privilege. I feel I've been given

I've been given an opportunity to take a

different view of things as a result of

being an outsider.

>> Are there words unsaid here with these

two people in your life?

>> Yes, there are there are so many words

unsaid. I'd like to go back to my mom

and say,

you know, I understand why you were so

obsessed with keeping me alive and

making sure that I did something with my

life. And I'd like to say to my dad,

look, you you were pretty crazy, but you

you did at least inspire me to be

eccentric.

It's a funny thing getting older. I'm

75, 76 in August. One of the things it

does is it you realize how collapsed

life actually is. I remember being a

teenager and I remember being a young

man and and I remember being

middle-aged. And the feeling is you're

immortal. It's going to go on forever.

Everything's going to go on forever. And

it's long. It's long. Lots of time to do

the things you want to do. I have a

message. No, it's not long. There is not

lots of time. If there's things you want

to do with your life, start now. Start

right away. Don't wait. Otherwise,

you'll not have the opportunity. Life is

very short. It's a beautiful, beautiful

gift that the universe has given to us.

We are responsible for returning that

gift by as far as possible within the

circumstances that the universe has

given us living a full life and

contributing something worthwhile to

that life. Not being a robot, not being

commanded what to do, not We we need to

learn to think for ourselves. This is

something that is so easily forgotten.

It's a miracle that you and I are

sitting here at all that I'm here, that

you're here, that we're here together.

It's absolute miracle. It's a result of

billions and billions of years of

processes in the universe which had

nothing to do with us randomly bring us

together at this at this point. It's

it's really quite a miraculous

situation. To be alive, to be born at

all is a miracle. Um I think it was

Voltater who talking about reincarnation

uh who said um it's no more

extraordinary to be born twice than to

be born once. Uh and I think there's a

point in that.

>> Are you religious? You believe in a god

or

>> I would say that I am um that I pay

attention close attention to what I

would regard as the spiritual

non-physical side of life. Um but I do

not belong to any organized religion.

One of the things I don't like about

organized religion is that your

relationship to the divine, whatever you

call the divine spirit world, whatever

you want to call it, your relationship

is mediated in some way. Some priest or

rabbi or müller teaches you how to

mediate that relationship. And I I think

what's important in for me anyway in in

the spiritual inquiry is a direct

relationship, a direct experience.

Rather than being taught something, I

want to experience it for myself. And

that's why I found Iawaska very very

valuable. Um because it has enabled me

to experience something that is

absolutely impossible to experience in

normal everyday life. We're so plugged

in. We're so plugged in to the physical

world and we have to be we've got to be

we got to obey the laws of physics. We

got to deal with the economics of our

circumstances. You know, we have to make

our way through life. All of those

things we've got to do. Um, but

if they become our total focus, we

become shut off from everything and

anything else that may exist. And what

the big psychedelics can do if they're

taken in the right circumstances with

the right advice

with sincere intention, what they can do

is get you out of your own way and allow

you to connect to that wider realm that

normally you cannot connect to. And yes,

I do believe that a wider realm exists.

uh just in the same way that uh you you

know before the invention of the

microscope we had no idea that there

were bacteria I think I'm right about

that we start seeing these tiny little

things swimming around gosh major

discovery well they were always there we

just didn't have the kit to see them and

I'm suggesting that what psychedelics

can be and certainly what they used as

shamans by for is a technology a device

uh for getting you out of your own way

and allowing you to connect with other

levels of reality that in daily life it

doesn't serve you to be connected with.

>> The interesting thing about DMT in

particular is when you speak to people

who have done DMT, you know, I spent

about a year working in a quite a big

psychedelics company just to I got

really fascinated. I'd left my company.

I didn't have anything to do with my

time. So I started this podcast and I

also uh on YouTube and I also started

working at a psychedelics business cuz I

found the studies on mental health and

psychedelics really interesting. So I

have quite a deep understanding I guess

higher than average of IV gain and Iaska

and DMT and my partner um is very very

spiritual and has done all these things

as well. So

>> one of the fascinating things is how

similar people's experiences are on

something like DMT. the funnily enough

your description of these creatures

saying you're you belong to us now is

almost verbatim what what one of my

friends described two weeks ago

>> that they were teleported into this like

4K realm where these creatures that are

like slightly animal in their anatomical

structure maybe slightly a little bit

human as well

>> basically was like had

>> had taken hold of him

>> and they were very curious and

inspecting him very colorful realm and

then they kind of sent him back or at

least you know after the and and it does

make one wonder. I think one of my

conclusions was if if inhaling a small

chemical can completely take me to

another place

>> then and and if you from a reasoning

perspective it's just a it was an in one

inhale of a chemical then it goes to say

that my current perception of reality

>> is just is as fragile as an inhale of a

chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here

with you now

>> is as fragile as inhaling

>> one chemical. Yeah.

>> So to think that this is base reality

when the difference between this and

being with some grasshopper people

>> in 4K

>> Exactly.

>> is literally an ale. It just that for me

I was like, "Oh, wow." Okay.

>> It's an extraordinary realization when

that comes and it causes us to question

the nature of reality itself. And this

is um this is what's really important

about these medicines. First and

foremost, you're right. the these um

psychedelic medicines are proving

incredibly effective as therapeutic

tools and that's great. I I I really I

think that's incredibly valuable. But

there's another level to go which is to

the inquiry into the nature of reality

and the inquiry into what consciousness

is. These medicines are very effective

means to conduct that inquiry. And

that's why I applaud what they're doing

at Imperial College in London. They're

also going to be doing trials at the

University of California, San Diego. Um

they're going to be doing trials in

Costa Rica. Uh a whole range of places

now are looking into this because it's

really interesting people coming back

and reporting the same experience when

they haven't compared notes yet.

>> How do we explain that? Because it's in

a vision

>> and people say that at the moment the

default mode is to dismiss it and say

that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on

it. Our preconceptions about the nature

of reality should not limit our inquiry

into the nature of reality. And at the

moment still unfortunately there are

preconceptions about the nature of

reality which is that it's materialbased

that there's nothing else to it really.

Everything is reduced to matter. Even

consciousness is reduced to matter. It's

reduced to the physical matter of the

brain. We don't know that for sure. We

don't know what's going on.

consciousness is absolutely not

understood. And so when we have

mysteries like people who are injected a

small dose of a chemical like DMT and go

off into a completely other reality,

that's really interesting. And it's it's

it's it's at least as interesting, if

not more interesting than exploring

other planets right now. I think we need

to I think we need to explore ourselves

first. We need to We're not in shape as

a species to start exploring the

universe. We don't want to export our

toxicity to other parts of the universe

until we've overcome it, until we've

grown up as a species, which we haven't

done yet. We need to know ourselves.

Psychedelics are one way to do that. Not

used irresponsibly, but used responsibly

in a structured, careful, thoughtful

way. They can be very helpful in knowing

ourselves. That's the journey we need to

do first. Go to Mars by all means, you

know, go to the moon. we go even

further, but do this first. Know who you

are first before you start doing those

bigger and wider investigations. Get all

that sorted out because we're hardly

sorted out anything on this planet and

we're talking about exploring other

planets. Well, I'm all in favor of

exploring other planets, but I'd like to

sort out things on this planet first.

That's where the resources should be

going. And we should stop kidding

ourselves that we can just escape this

planet and make a complete hole of

it, leave it, and go and live somewhere

else. No, we can fix this. We are

capable of fixing this. We're capable of

fixing everything. Human beings have

enormous potential. We're just using a

fraction of 1% of it at the moment.

>> The question I, you know, I mean, the

obvious question that comes to mind is

how I see, you know, maybe I don't know,

maybe some kind of leader comes along.

>> Could be. Um, I think we need to need to

move past leaders.

>> I just don't know how else humans would

change without some kind of leadership.

It's very difficult to see. I agree with

you. It's very it's very difficult to

see how it happens one person at a time

um slowly through through word of mouth,

through experience. But look, everything

in the Iawaska garden is not all flowers

either. There's a lot of very wrong

behavior going on there. People are

exploiting that medicine. Basically,

drug dealers are exploiting that

medicine and offering it irresponsibly

to people in groups of a hundred or even

more. that that that's that's actually

really really stupid to do that. I Iaska

is an intimate experience and it needs

to be done in a very small group, not a

very large group.

So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not

you know I'm not trying to paint these

medicines in a in in a false light. They

have their downsides. They have their

problems. They are extremely serious. We

should always research and investigate

before any experience with psychedelics,

but they have a part to play and it's an

important part. And thank God we're

seeing its effects. Psilocybin effect on

long-term depression, very important.

Post-traumatic stress disorder, very

important. These therapeutic

breakthroughs hopefully will open the

door to further inquiries into the kind

of work that's being done at Imperial

College. What does this really tell us

about the mystery of consciousness? What

does this really tell us about what we

think is real?

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>> Through your journey through um ancient

civilizations, what have you come to

learn about what this consciousness

thing is, if anything at all, or at

least what people believed.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and how those mythologies were

similar.

>> Yes. I've partly I've partly come to

this through the ancient texts. There's

a very specific uh scene in a number of

the ancient Egyptianerary texts. It's

called the judgment scene. And what you

see is you see the deceased entering

into a hall into a room at the end of

which sits the god Osiris enthroned.

And uh the deceased is led into the hall

by the goddess Mart. She's recognized by

a feather that she wears in her

headdress. She's the goddess of truth,

justice, and cosmic harmony.

He enters the hall. There's a scale in

the hall. In one pan of the scale is an

object that represents his heart,

oblique, his soul. Heart and soul were

the same thing for the Egyptians in that

sense. And in the other pan is the

feather of mart, the feather of truth,

harmony, and cosmic justice.

You do not want your heart to outweigh

the feather at that moment.

You want at the very least to be in

balance.

And in order to be in balance then comes

into question the whole way that you've

lived your life. Up on the wall of the

hall there are 42 little figures.

They're called the 42 negative

assessors. Each one of them is going to

ask you a question. Did you steal? Did

you kill? Actually, the ten commandments

are all in there and a lot more as well.

Ideally, you should be able to answer no

to all of those questions, but the

ancient Egyptians always understood how

frail human beings are and that we can

always make mistakes. The question is,

what do we do when we make a mistake? Do

we learn from it or do we keep on

repeating it? And what I read into that

is you were given, you deceased, you

were given an incredible opportunity. We

allowed you to be born in a human body.

You could have a range of experiences

that no other physical form on your

planet could have. You you you had this

huge brain. You had this enormous

capacity. We gave it this to you. What

did you do with it?

Did you use it well or did you squander

it and waste it? And at that moment,

you'd better be there with some answers

about how you used it well. So, as I

come towards the end of my life, I look

very carefully at my life. I and um I

try to undo wrongs that I have done in

the past if I can and I try to make sure

I don't do any more in the future. I

want to be a nurturing and positive and

useful person to the people around me.

>> The the health situation you've gone

through has clearly made you quite

introspective, probably more so than you

you might have been 10 years ago, I'm

guessing.

>> Oh, yeah. AB: Absolutely. I was still

immortal 10 years ago. M

>> listen each and every one of us, every

single human being on this planet could

die in the next minute. Life is that

fragile. It's that sudden. You can never

predict you you how long you're going to

live. But what something like this does,

it focuses the mind and it does make me

wish more and more that I can leave this

life with as few regrets as possible and

that I can feel that I played a useful

and positive role in the life of others

and that I even played in some way a

useful and positive role in the life of

the species to which I belong. Are you

happy?

>> I am very happy

in a lot of ways. I'm blessed to have

lived the life I've lived, to have

traveled the world, to have the

adventures that I have had. I am blessed

with a beautiful and wonderful wife and

companion. My wife Samtha

>> got this wonderful picture of her.

>> Yeah.

>> Glows.

>> That's me and Samantha. We met when we

were about 40 years old. And um I don't

think we've been apart more than 4 days

in the entire 30 plus years uh since

then.

>> Wow.

>> Uh we do everything together. We travel

together. Samantha's a photographer.

Brilliant photographer. And and and uh I

do not have a great visual eye. So we

work together. I do the words. Sa does

the pictures. We have the adventures

together. We did the scuba diving

together. Samantha nearly lost her life

twice in intense currents scuba diving.

She's brave. She's an adventurer.

She's a wonderful mother. This is so

important. Samantha and I have six

children between us. Samantha brought

two from her previous marriage. I

brought two from my first marriage and

two from my second marriage. So, six

children from three broken marriages is

a potential disaster. Santa brought them

all together into a group of loving,

deeply committed siblings who care for

one another, who are constantly in each

other's lives, who are there to support

one another. SA did that by just being a

brilliant, loving person. So, I'm very

happy to have such a great partner who's

stood by me through thick and thin and

who's brought out these wonderful

characters in in in our children and now

our grandchildren. You know, nine

grandchildren, six grandkids, all of

it's down to Santa. It's remarkable that

through all the wonders of human history

and all the things we talked about that

love like this kind of romantic love is

so central, so important, so central to

our happiness. I just thought, oh, it's

it's just a wonderful reminder of um how

easy it is to get caught up in the

material and and all the toxic whereas,

you know, so much of it comes from just

the simplicity of falling in love with

someone.

>> Love is what it's all about. And and

love is love is giving. It's giving

yourself to somebody else. It's putting

the other person. Sorry, I'm going to

end up crying. This This is what my wife

does all the time with everybody.

She puts other people first and uh

others benefit enormously from that. I'm

very fortunate. I think I think if I

hadn't met Samantha when I did and we

hadn't formed this joint life, I think I

would have made nothing of my life.

Nothing at all really.

>> I think it would have just gone down the

tubes. I needed a loving steering hand

at that point. Anyway, very lucky. I I I

am happy. There are things that make me

unhappy, of course, just like every

every every other human being. I I don't

understand why those who are bitterly

opposed to my work want to try and

present me as some kind of fraud or

grifter. But I suppose it's a easy way

to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh,

another thing that has been used is

because I've considered the possibility

of a lost civilization having an

influence on other known historical

civilization. Uh I've been accused of

racism as well that I've been I've been

accused of taking away the authenticity

of indigenous achievements. Um and and

that again has been without without any

receipts. It's not been it's just thrown

out there as an accusation. Now for me

with with a multithnic family uh that

racism abuse that has been thrown at me

constantly uh is extremely hurtful and

extremely painful. It's one of the few

things that have been thrown at me that

I actually cannot forgive. It's

unforgivable to use that lazy

easy dismissal

in a society where a lot of people don't

read anymore. I mean, pretty much

guarantee people who hear that on the

internet, they're not going to go and

read the books and actually find out

what I said. They're just going to take

it as face value. So, that does hurt and

it does make me sad. But generally, I'm

blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a

fantastic privileged life. I've explored

the world. I'm surrounded by love and

onwards and upwards as far as I'm

concerned.

>> Well, you know, Graeme, I think at the

end of the day, the thing that endures

is

>> the impact, the curiosity that you've

you've provoked in people, allowed them

to wander beyond the narrowness of our

lives, which is quite miserable.

>> A narrow life is feels quite like a

miserable life where you can't be

open-minded and explore. And and that's

why I love these conversations. It's not

to say that I that I always accept when

I have these kind of conversations

everything to be 100% true, but the net

benefit for me is just expanding my mind

>> to possibility.

>> Absolutely.

>> And like please don't rob me of the

opportunity to expand my mind to

possibility. What would my life become